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Naked Truth with Carmen & Olivia
Naked Truth with Carmen & Olivia

Episode 3 · 1 year ago

Epsiode 3: Change

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this week's episode of Naked Truth with Carmen and Olivia, they speak with special guest, John Stockdale, about managing change - both from an organisational and personal perspective.

Connect with us on social media on instagram @nakedtruthpod, on Twitter @nakedtruth_pod, and find our Facebook page Naked Truth with Carmen & Olivia.

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Our podcast, naked truth with Carmen and Olivia. I'm Olivia Standbridge, and my day job is being a transformational life coach. Today's topic is change. Change is an unavoidable part of our lives, both an inside and outside the workplace. Sometimes we have control over it, often we don't, and we've all experienced good and bad change, but, as with many things, it's often the negative experiences that we remember and stay with us for longer. And a big change we've all been living with in recent times is lockdown. But today we're actually going to be focusing on change, mainly from a workplace perspective. So I'll hand over to my cohost, Carmen Darz hi. Carmen A, Hi, guys, how I am? So yeah, I'm crime and Darth and I'm going to transformation of life coite as well, and today we change a little be the format of the episode. It is seems fitting considering the subject matter. We have a special best today with us. John Stop Day and Joel will be joining our cashion about change and telling us a little bit about this fearence of change win in the workplace. So, Yoah, please would you tell the audience about yourself, where you do? What is your interesting personal development? Certainly can go morning. Thank you, Carmen. Thank you, Olivia. Place to be with you this morning. So as discuss, my name is John Stock Down. I am a manager by trade. I work particularly in the plan in field and, as she's expected, there a lot with organizational change, structural redevelopment and technology deployment. So, as you would expect, I've got a lot of experience of this from both ends. It's a very interesting topic and quite excited to be here with you to day talk about it. I'm quite interested to get into the conversation and and sharing here some of your thoughts. Thank you. So, to kick us off, could you talk us through a positive and a negative experience of change in the workplace? So something you've experienced personally yet certainly can't. There's some great examples on both ends of the spectrum and I'll just obviously we'll share the two if you let's get straight into the negative, because this sometimes, sometimes as much as it's negative, can also be the the story with a little bit more of a comedy element. But that doesn't always translate well, particularly when you deal with the audience. So personal experience of a negative change, without giving any business names away. Two Thousand and sixty thousand and eight financial crisis. Obviously businesses in shock and lots of structural realignments going on part of that process. Obviously never pleasant to announce redundancies or changes to work in acts is to people, and I was I was witnessed to one of these messages being delivered to a group of senior managers, where the host welcome them into the room. Obviously the group had an idea of what was about to happen, but they hadn't been given the final details yet, and his opening gambit to the audience of onlookers was obviously, you know why we're here. Obviously it's with great sorrow and regret we need to announce we need to make some changes which are going to involve redundancies, immediately punctuated with don't worry, I've still got a job, which, as I'm sure you can imagine, did absolutely nothing for the people in the room who was delivering a very difficult message to who were potentially eager to find out whether they still had a job at the end of three months time. And I can appreciate in those circumstances you trying to make light, you try and deliver a difficult message and you maybe maybe nervous yourself and uncomfortable delivering...

...that message. But I think the key point was really missed there. The message that was being delivered wasn't for the host it was for the people in the room and it was a really ill advised and probably ill considered approach to make a joke to people who potentially facing risking their job. And I think think any change is difficult. It needs to be handled with care and sensitivity and I think that really set them off on the back foot straight away. It was just not a good way to begin the process. It was quite interesting to watch and mixed reactions from the room and a little bit of nervous laughter, but I think all of this needs to be handled with care and I think that was a really bad example of how to start a difficult process badly. It's quite funny because I mean I've be in corporate for many, many years, nearly eighteen, twenty years or more, and I saw so many examples of that and I think for the F future lead us, they really have to work on themselves to have really strong character traits and, I think, compassion and empathy. Without these two skills I just can't see leaders surviving in the new future. And it is not the shocking party is on your new stomp. You hear so many examples like that of really poor communication. So yeah, it's I hope the new leaders will learn to do a better job in that respect. So yeah, so the second question, Joan, for me is all about how the the company, caters for the different emotional faces we going through. So for the ONS play to be all this, a little bit about what is the change? Car is like. He has like a V shape. So we can split the change and it is, as we mentioned before, chances, anything that's been imposed on us, and we talked from the negative change and not the positive one. So we can split the transition of change in three different chance, Spirit, chance, the ending of what it was before the transition periods and then the new beginnings. And there are seven emotional faces. The human means we go through in different order and know everybody is the same, but there's seven. So in the endings it is about letting go of what it was before. The FO emotional faces. The first one is shocked. So normally employees they will go like now, this is not happening to me. This can be, you know, like the crisis. The second one is denial. The try to find evidence that this is not happening to me. The third one is they started playing around with acceptance because they found evidence to day is happening and they started very little, slowly, fine with the idea that well, I have to set this some how. And then the curve touches the bottom part of the curve days is that we call it depression. It doesn't need to be huge, but the embrace and human beings, we feel very low mood, very low energy and we just struggling willing to wake up and get out of the bed. So this are the four emotional faces of the letting. The whole way of working for something, the coming goal in the transition periods is still working on the acceptance, the depression, but they tiptoe there, you know, like a little be on experimenting and Little Bill The new world. You know, what is this change to gonna give me? And then in the new beginning is more towards they make a decision within themselves. Is What it is. This is my new reality. I accept hundred percent and I engage on it. So if we think about how the company can support the different employees as a mention, because as well, is not linear. So I can be one personal as dimension in listening to you leader, as you mentioned before, that goes from shock to arrive home and be totally depressed. And it could be all the employees that are shock and it's well, is...

...what it is. I accepted. So now everybody goes at the same time. So and and it's not totally linear, because you will. You can go from shop to depression, that go back to acceptance, etc. So it's also the supporter I saw through my career is quite important. We cater for the different spaces like, for example, in the ending and letting the past go. It's all about clarity. The communication has to be about clarity and meet the employs always where they are. So it's about clarity and empathy. So you need to be very careful on the words you use as dimension with your leader in the transition period where still playing with the septance and a little bit low more to and depression. It is still there that this really, really important. You need to say, you know, get what guys, we are here with you in the trenches and we're here to support you. Will listeners. So when we communicate, they can hear me say and they can think. You know what's very listening to our presences. So it's all about empathy and motivating people, you know, like the new change is going to be amazing. You opportunities, etc. And when we go to the new beginning, where people are, you know, they're accepted what it is and they've totally engage with a new way it so all about capability and knowledge. So giving people the skills and all the knowledge. So my question to you, John, it's about you experiencing that when you went through the coverts and would work well and what didn't work well in your sperience and when you put in place. Excellent thank you. I think you touch on some very, very crucial points that I think as leaders and organizations today, particularly going through a change, need to be aware of. Your highlights are quite clearly there that are some some key emotional pillars and stages that individuals go through and I think from my own personal experience of going through change and managing it within larger organizations, it's key for leaders to appreciate and understand that people within your team will go through each of those individual stages but are completely different times and I think it's key as a leader managing that change to understand that while half of your team might be excited, ready to go, they've got over the initial and inertia and they're looking forward to what's coming, half of the team might still be in that acceptance stage where they're still trying to process that information and the trying to take it in, and that requires a very considered, insightful approach from leaders to understand that not everybody is going to experience that change the same and they're not going to experience it exactly the same time, and you need to be very close and tuned into your people and listening to what they're saying to pick up on those cues, verbal or otherwise, that they may not be as positive or as enthusiastic or as engaged as they may outwardly appear to be, and that could be fear of I don't want to say anything it may jeopardize my position longer term. It may be for some people they're just accept it, they'll be completely on board and they'll run with the plan from day one and other people will need that time and opportunity to go away, exactly as you've alluded to, and allow that information to sink into process it, for them to really consider what that change means to them, what their place in the changes, and for them sometimes to accept that this is something they have an opportunity to be a part of rather than it be something that is done to them. Some people naturally avoid change. It's human nature. We like consistency and then if in the rocks the Apple car challenges the status quote for us as so I think in the very early stages, deliver the message, be clear and then give people an opportunity to go...

...away and think about it. Don't put them on the spot and expect them to come up with questions and, you know, not necessarily challenges, but that don't expect them to have everything they want to know two hands when you've just given them a message. They had no idea it was coming. Allow them to go away, allow them to to think about it, take the information in a process it and then, having had the opportunities to do that, they needs to be safe environment, safe forum for them to come back and discuss that. Some people be comfortable doing that in a group situation will be happy to stand up straight away, and so I want to know xyzer, other individuals within the team will want that opportunity to speak to you and sound you out and maybe just a private opportunity to fill in some of the blanks before they really form their opinion. Everybody's got different filters, different experiences, and that will color the thought process and their journey throughout this change, and it's important to realize it. Just because some of these enthusiastic at the beginning doesn't mean that they won't, in two weeks time, have reflected on it and think this isn't happening overnight and as time drags on and as we know, sometimes things get delay, time scales change, it can feel like they have this thing hanging over them but they can't see the results or they can't physically see any tangible evidence of the change, and it can start to feel a bit disconcert and for them because they if they're not getting the right information. So, as I had the opportunity to come back and discuss, it's important, then to have that regular checkpoint in place where you're actively avoiding rumors and conjecture springing up because in the absence of facts, people fill in the blanks themselves, put two and two together and make five, and that can be a big detractor from what was originally a positive person at the outset. Suddenly going I haven't heard anything for three weeks, something must be wrong and they say, slip back into that negative, disruptive stirring up the community and in a bad way, which is obviously going to going to undermine you change. So let them think, let them take it away, give them the opportunity to come back and discuss and then make sure you've got those regular checkpoints or forums in place for them to come back if they say, you know what, I thought something at the weekend I haven't considered, but you're us. Need to make sure you're pushing the right information out to them and if you commit to an update or you commit to share some stats or demonstrate the benefits or the system or whatever it is you're doing, make sure you keep your promises, because any evidence to that individual who's having a bit of a wobble that you're not doing the thing you said you were going to do is going to undermine their thought process through everything else and what you need to do and what we want them to focus on is the long term benefit, the long term goal and the the posts that going to come out of that and we don't want anything in the background that is potentially going to detract from that or sway their opinions. So you need to keep your promises, be clear about what you're doing and follow through, give them that safe environment to come back in and talk to you about and just really accept the fact that you might have ten people all the completely different stages and make sure you keep those guys to keep those guys on board. You you you're taking every opportunity you can, but appreciating that this is an individual experience for each of them and you need to treat each of them as an individual. There is no blanket approach and let's just do it and we're going to go from A to be. It just doesn't work like that. It's a important point you mention with the rumors. So I remember many times in my company, my goodness, the almost were like ten different things. Any creates so much is pressing...

...a sciety because you don't know which one to believe, but you know something is coming. So for sure you knew a change will come, but which one to believe? And I you you know. Sometimes it was for a month and they said very long time for an employee to go with the normal job and their lines and distress. Let's have that Astralia saying, oh my gods, you know is you're going to be these one though, one. It's a really good one, John, really good point. Yeah, I think I was a really it was a very thorough answer. That was really interesting. So very kind of interesting topic how organization should be dealing with change. I just wanted to sort of say I've noticed that we've forgot to kind of answer the positive question, but I think it's good to stay on the track they're on at the moment and then we'll come back to the positive side sort of at the end. So what you've just been talking about. One thing that came up for me was that idea of you don't always know how people are feeling. They might not be comfortable expressing that to others and that often will people will tow the party line because they're trying to keep their job safe and not actually tell people, you know, they're real thoughts or feelings. So we've covered kind of what what an organization can do to support people through change, but what would you say is something that employees can do for themselves? What's on the employees to kind of manage themselves through change period? It's an interesting point actually, because there is responsibility on both sides for this. I think as an individual going through any change, and it could be moving house, get married, getting divorce, changing jobs, I think is an individual for you to be present, be productive, be the best version of yourself you can be. You need a little bit of self awareness and I think there is a responsibility on you that. If you are noticing that your habits changing or your mood is being affected, or you find that you are struggling to get to sleep and things that you're not maybe open publicly about, you know this is worrying me. If you are starting to notice those things are having an effect on you, I think it's important to address that up front and obviously seek help and advice and obviously in a good organization where we're talking about positive change, you'll have those forums in place, you'll have those external agencies that you can contact privately. So I just want to talk through, you know, articulate my thoughts and get it straight in my head before I go to my manager with it. And I think it's important as an individual, if you feel a physical change or an impact to yourself, that you you make the most of those those resources that you have available and if you haven't got them, going speak to somebody who might be able to point you in the right direction. I think it's your your looking after yourself and keeping your own cup full is very important, particularly if you're the leader is going through this, because you could be at a middle management level where you've got this team of twenty to fifty people below you who are all stressed worried about your jobs. You've got pressure from above, from there, obviously from your director written your Exco Team, who saying we had to deliver this by x day, and you've got this pull in both directions where you're responsible for deliver in this for the business, but you're also responsible for the well billy being of these people who don't have access to the information and and the you know, the level of feedback or conversation that you do. So it's important to look after your own health and wellbeing. If you start to notice a change you, it's really you need to take that opportunity, even if that opportunity is putting your hand up and saying I'm not okay, because the sooner you recognize you're not okay, the sooner you can do something about it and the more benefit you can deliver to those people that you're supporting on both ends of expect that of the spectrum, the business objectives and the commercial requirements,...

...but also the team below you who are looking to you for support. As far as that team are concerns, you're the go to person. So you need to be firing a roll four cylinders and if you know you're slipping before it gets to the point where slips and impact someone else, take those steps, take those opportunities, have that little bit of self reflect action and go do I need to make a change here, because this potentially is going to negatively impact not just me but the people that are looking to me for help and support throughout this process. It's a literary light building you off poison in a way and, to be honest, my experience in corporates with one of the issues I always had is it's very good if you do personal developments because you are prepared for this, but many times the middle management, they just respected to have the skills deal with it, pres you job and etc. And that could be very difficult. So I think as much as we can be responsible for our own, you know, well being, I think there is responsibility from the the corporate to make sure that we train the middle management, you know, because many times we just left them there and they have to deal with it. But these people, they don't, they don't have the skills to deal with well being and many times even their own imagine the employees well being. So you say it's a really good point, but I think my point is more like yet take personal responsibility, but the company need to train the middle management to be able to do that job and cater for the employee needs. Not assume that because you're a manager, you can do so. Yeah, if in doubt, ask for help when you think you need it. Yeah, yeah, and the thing as well, it has the character has to change increase. The problem incorporate is the corporate culture. They're being for though, you can't show you vulnerable because he's not seem like a strength. So it's a whole work to do incorporate, where you know, every time, as is samble they showing them weakst point. I look at them like a very strong person, because it's so difficult to do it's so difficult to show yourself. Yet the top leaders in my company they were like, I don't know, perhaps this percial is not our leader type. So it's a huge change in all these that thanks young so Olivia and I have some advice on our own for coping with change way, so say, or in the workplace. So Olivia, will you might to start? Yeah, before we before we get to that, can I just do you have a good example of I'm sure you do have a good example, but I know it's sometimes it's difficult to think of good examples of change, sort of in the workplace, but where it's been done particularly well. And then we'll go into our kind of our top tips for coping with change. Yep, certainly to obviously not all changes, but once you're over that initial that initial and Asial, I think covid nineteen is very, very topical. I've seen some obviously you only have to look at things like Youtube, instagram, etc. Where people are accepting the fact that this is a longer term problem and you can see people online and Joe wixs and they that comes up quite often, even down to Greg Wallace doing his own fit can't recently. You know, there's some brilliant examples out there in the media of people doing positive things and making use of the opportunity learn and new skill reavers and old hobbies, which is great. I think in the workplace, if I was to give you know, Covid as an example, I've seen some great very, very customer and an employee focused approaches. I've seen some bad ones. Were touched on that and we weren't dwell on it, but particularly we think covid. I think I've seen some great examples of New Zealand is perfect one. If you look at New Zealand's Prime Minister, prior to any deaths being recorded in New Zealand, came out to the country. She's very, very clear...

...about the message. She explained the challenge but she didn't try and hide or or sugar coat anything. She she was very accepting and very not vulnerable, but very honest with her people. Said this is going to be tough but we need to do it. We are seeing deaths across the globe as a result of COVID. Nineteen we're seeing some very strict measures being put in place, but we want to react quicker before we record any of our deaths. And why? I understand that this isn't going to be easy. We need to do this now and I think if you were to go back and you were to look at the the death rates and recorded cases overall, they are seeing a quicker exit from lockdown with less impact, a significant impact, and were talking about people who are occupying hospital death, sorry, occupying hospital beds, equipment, putting pressure on their health service up to the point of dying, and they are seeing lower infection rates, lower impact of their infrastructure health services and they are seeing a quicker exit and return to what we would consider the new norm, faster than countries where they've perhaps been slower to react, the information has flowed less freely and the policy has changed or being inconsistent. And I think obviously I'm calling out New Zealand's as example, and I know we're talking about we're talking particularly about corporate and organizations and how they deliver change, but the takeaway from that message and how it delivered for me was very much be clear about your message. Don't hide things, be honest, with people. They'll appreciate it. If you don't know, tell them you don't know, but explain what you want to do, have an objective and then stick to what you're doing and keep people up today, and I think that was the example that I'm drawer and from how New Zealand, as an individual nation country, sorry, dealt with the process and I think that that filters through to all change. Tell people what you want to do, be clear about it, give them an opportunity to discuss and share ideas. Be Open and honest, stick to the plan, but don't be afraid to make changes if that plan isn't going in the direction you want, but be seen to take action and do that as a group, rather than here's a piece of information, we are telling you to do this and then two weeks later it changes and then you come back and go here's a new piece of information and your population is left going well, we don't know what to believe now. Be Clear, be concise, stick to your plan, be open and honest and follow through. And I think that was a great example and I think the bear and the fruit and the reward for the approach that they've taken up front before it got to a real crisis situation where it was affecting their country and there and hbitants. Yeah, I think New Zealand's a great example of that and it it really although we are kind of talking about positive experience, it does make you consider how different it's been for us in in while, say the UK, but specifically in England, that it has been very mixed messages, it has been quite unclear it. We get very a very odd way of us in lockdown where allows to do some things and not others that don't seem particularly to make sense, and the result of that seems to be that you know how many thousands of people turned up at Bournmouth beats over the last couple of days, and we're not social distancing and we're not wearing masks and I think we can all expect our our number to go back up, whereas New Zealand basically eradicated their covid just from having a very transparent lockdown which then, I'm sure, empowered people to just follow the rules because it was very clear about what we're doing and why we're doing it and what the outcome what the goal is of doing this. So that's a great example thank you so much for your answering our questions. We will now move on to our kind of advice of how to be more empowered to deal with change yourself,...

...and the first thing that springs to mind for me is to be more successful at dealing with change is that you need to just accept it. Don't kind of fixate on the limitations of specific change, because then you end up just worrying and despairing or being angry. But if you instead choose to accept the fact change happens and that you are free to decide what's to do next, it just makes things a bit easier. So you can accept the past and still fight for the future. We are never free from change, but we are always free to decide how we respond to it. So don't always think of change as a negative and it's very you know, there's is great change out there, but I have personally been in experiences that are felt very bad at the time and I look that now I think I'm so glad things change and I'm not still in that situation and it was only because of change that I am where I am now. So, Calma, what's your kind of first tip? It's really at any leaks to. My point is every human means we have the habits of labeling events. So something is good or something is bad, and for me labeling is that full stop. And you could be thinking, well, if you label something good, surely is good because he gives you a good emotions. The problem is we can human means, we can't separate. Let's only label the good ones and forget about not labeling the but the bad ones. And as you mentioned, many times in my life that I label something bad. But problem with labeling that you already started creating the negative story in your mind. You know, I you lose your job, but that point is not painful. If I'm sitting down with John, my manager, and he tell me you lost your job, nothing happened in my life. I still have money in my bank accounts. Yet the motions, the story still running out. How I'm going to pay for my kids to school, how I'm going to pay for my mortgage, etc. I'm going to, you know, get a new job. So it helps to not to label and just to say I lost my job and it's very, very difficult, and he said daily Ward. But first of all we have to set the reality without the story and then focus on the things we can control. So I can't control to convince John to give me my job back, but what I can control is to focus until I leave in finding a new job or things like that. So taking action and things you can focus and try and not to create the story by labeling, just mention what it is. Many times, like if you think about there is a rainy day and there's a rainbow, you always feel so present in the moment when you go to the window and you look at the rainbow in the sky, it's just peace. I never had anybody saying every time I look at Rainbow, so I get stressed because it's. Why is that? Is because you not trying to say, oh, it should be different colors, that to to write these colors, the rainbow should be more towards the left of the right of the sky. Is Perfect what it is and you you just say this is a rainbow. So from that perspective, is it helps us not to create stories if we just say, okay, I lost my job, now let's focus and it doesn't mean because the story is or John doesn't think I'm good, I'm not clear enough. So you started treating yourself badly on topics. In the majority of cases we chart ourselves. So, yeah, try to stop labeling things as bad, because many times they were the best things. As you mentioned, Oliver, I didn't get a promotion myself up for a year and then, idea later, I got a job that was better suited for me. And other point I realize, oh my gosh, thank God I didn't get a promotion because I had to travel all the time, and I had to travel. Yet I being resentful and angry with these people for a year. Imagine if I put that energy into getting new skills. And you know. But we put the energy in the story and we allow the motions to run your life. So it's quite important the play to...

...sudden label, inter thenceus. But yes, is what it is. Yeah, and there's there's a lot of fear behind, like not being able to cope with change very well. So another thing you can do is really focus on your values instead of what you are fearing, because if you remind yourself of what's important to you, it can create a sort of buffer against whatever troubles are there, and reflecting on a personal value can help you rise above that perceived threat and you realize that your personal identity can't be compromised by one challenging situation that you're going through. You know, even if you lose your job, that doesn't change who you are inside and what's really important to you. That's something I struggled with initially when I left the police, even though I didn't want to be in the police anymore. It was like, or who am I, because that it was the first thing I told anyone was high. I'm a living around the police officer. That's all I identified with and since and I've realized that didn't identify me at all. That was just an occupation. So if you can really know your values and and what they mean to you and the kind of life you want to lead, it also really helps you make the next decision when it comes to the change. You know, what are you going to do? Do you accept it or do you accept it's happening and that your life's going to change and you don't want that Ticul Change? You're going to pick something else instead and you're going to move on. You know you don't have to stay in organization. It's making a big organizational change. You are free to apply for other jobs and get something else. Did you want to commentium? Yeah, I think that's a really good point and I think it's one that people, not people, often miss. Your House, your car, your job in your status, they are all things that can be taken away from you. They're not the things that make you who you are, and I think that's a very, very good point and I think that's one that people often lose sight of, particularly when they're in that shock stage. All those things can be taken away from you, but I think it's really, really important to keep focused exactly, you've just hit the nail on the head there, on your values and why you're doing something, because those skills, those values, your education, your knowledge of the things that can't be taken away from you and they're the important things that makes you you. You do not change because you suddenly don't have that title anymore. Yeah, it's an excellent point and for me, to be honest, I spent so many years, because I'm a workaholic. Well, I was the head of the PRIMIS. Nothing else mattered to me and you spend hours, and I was doing that and you identify yourself as a person as that job, and then when you lose the job. It will be a huge impact in your life. It's really good point and the last tool we're going to give you. Guys. It's about how to deal with the weak. Fears. So far is a daily companion for everybody. Really, even if you think, you look at your colleagues or your voices said, if you think that they don't have fears, we all do. Son of us. We can hide them more than others, and there's that. But a volume, a model, you can use this to tackle that. One of the first thing is to be aware of your your fears. So write the list of your fears in a piece of paper and then ask yourself, what can I do this my control to reduce the likelihood of this fear happening? Nice, for example, if he's with the Covet? What can I do if I'm scared of the getting the cove it? What can I do to reduce the likelihood of this happening to me? Well, I follow what the Goverman is telling us. Social distances is starting at home, etc. The second point is the second question is, what can I do to reduce the impact of this fear? This fear become my reality? Well, it's an immuse system illness discovered nineteen. So I need to make sure that the need in my new is helping strong. So I'm going to eat well,...

...sleep well, try to do some exercise, because all these these are up and my control. The third question is what are the benefits of taking action towards this fear? Is that the fear becomes smaller and small and smaller because your mind is totally focused on the actions you can do and you just act. You Stop Thinking, you take your safe from your mind to acting. And the fourth question is about what is the cost of the national so what happens in your life if you don't do anything about with these fears? If you will become bigger and bigger and it will control your life. So, for questions that are really important, a very simple model that you can go through all any stabout, would use the likelihood reduced, the impact actions and the make control and the cost of not acting. So that is the this make Olivia John, before we kind of go on to our endings. We're going to be wrapping it up soon. Is there anything else about change that you'd like to kind of talk about or any kind of points that you're at all? I haven't raised that yet now I think we've covered the key topics and I think, particularly if you're managing the changes we alluded to before, it's to be aware that the people around you were going to experience that differently in a different times and if you can keep that in your thoughts and manage your process to help support them, you love a much mover transition, not just for you but also for the people around you. And and just just just keep in mind that it can sometimes be a long process, but change is inevitable and we have to go through it to move forwards and often the result is is going to get you somewhere you need to be. It's just accepting that it is going to be scary at the beginning. There will be inertia, there will be challenges that you didn't expect, things that come up that you could have planned for, and accept that that's all part of the process and it's all part of your growth in your journey and you're learning. If you never do anything different, you never going to achieve anything different. So just just keep that in mind. Don't let it stop you doing something that might get you somewhere wonderful in the future just because it looks difficult from the outset and you haven't quite got all the answers yet. Don't try and fix the problem all at once. Break it down into small chunk small steps, and work through than one at a time. Keep your people close to your be honest, be up front, be clear about what you want to achieve and why you doing it. And if you have that goal and vision in mind and you understand why you're doing it, it makes physically doing it a lot easier and it helps manage that stress and anxiety for our process. Brilliant. Thank you, John, and you just you said something now I just wrote down. You said change will get you somewhere you need to be, and I really like that kind of mindset. It's the mindset of change happens for you and not to you. You can embrace it and kind of make of it what you want, I know, and that's really difficult sometimes. And if you are struggling with change, you know you can speak to people like life coaches like Carmen and myself as well. As you know, they're what we could bling your workplace. You can always reach out to no doubt, but I understand that sometimes people like to go to people externally, but you know, just do some research. Is Always someone out there who can whether it's just listen to you hope you get some clarity, or whether you need some kind of mentoring advice, there's always people out there that you can speak to to help you with this. So very special. Thank you to our first guest, John Stockdale, for making a time to be with us today and sharing all his insight into change. So where can people find you if they want to connect and find out more? Will first of all thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure. My details. You'd be able to find me on Linkedin. Be There on the John Stop Del if you've got any questions, drop Olivia or Carmen and email like shake's...

...been a pleasure of thank you for having me and I hope you all have a good day. Thank you, John. Thank you, and you can connect with Carmen and I on Instagram at Naked Truth pod and twitter at naked truth underscore pod, because unfortunately that other handle is still taken. Our facebook page is naked truth podcast with Carmen and Olivia and if you'd like to collaborate or share your story, be a guest or get in contact with any of us are email address is naked truth pod at gmailcom. So tell your friends about to spread the word. Stay honest, stay you and stay naked. Goodbye, good bye.

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